Use of Ammonia When Soaking Timbers
 

I've done my share of modelling in wood, but until recently, I have not done a plank-on-bulkhead or frame kit. So, some of the techniques and tricks of the trade are new to me.

I have read that adding household ammonia to the water for soaking planking and other timbers helps the softening process and "acts as a lubricant"(?). Then I read somewhere that it does absolutely nothing and actually adversely affects the wood.

I'm about to install the chine timbers on my Model Shipway's Skipjack WILLIE L. BENNETT and the question is to use/not use ammonia and if it is to be used, how much?

Thanks in advance for any help that you might be able to give.

Cheers,

Al Bisasky

Re: Use of Ammonia When Soaking Timbers
 

Hi Al,
Actually the best method is steam. But in lu of that, just soak in very hot water (without the ammonia). Another way is to keep the pieces in water, like a water tray (type used for pre-pasted wallpaper), and when you need one, heat up for about a minute or two in a microwave.
plankowner

Re: Use of Ammonia When Soaking Timbers
 

Good Morning Al,

While one option is to use the method mentioned by plankowner, when hull planking, I use a tray similar to what plankowner uses, but I use windex as the soaking agent. I find that, when using CA glue, the windex does not affect the adhesion as water does.

Hope this helps!

Fred

Re: Use of Ammonia When Soaking Timbers
 

Many thanks, guys, for the tips. I will experiment with both methods. I fabricated a long, shallow soaking tray using the empty box from Model Shipways Fair-A-Frame and a heavy duty trash bag and pour in about 1/2" of water. I have one of those plank irons with a large round head to steam out the water and bend the planks. It's rated at 30W and the only problem that I've found is that it cools down fast because of the large tip. I also use a Weller soldering station with variable temperature up to 40W. I insert the tip in the element backwards. This exposes the rounded part of the tip and also seems to work pretty well.

The Windex idea make sense because of its "wetting" properties. So, I'll be doing some playing around with different methods and practicing my techniques on the scrap wood that I have lying around.

Cheers,

Al

Re: Use of Ammonia When Soaking Timbers
 

Hi Al,

I've tried ammonia with little success. Allot also depends on the type of wood you want to bend. The thick wale planks sometimes made from ebony or walnut are the toughest.

I also soak planks but being limited in space I bought an 8' length of 2" PVC pipe and cut it to several desired lengths, 1ft, 2ft, 3ft... cap one end and mount them in a wood base so they stand up. I then just shove the whole thing under the table while planks soak and grab one when needed.

I didn't have much luck with ammonia either so I searched for another trick and came up with straight white vinegar! This worked like a charm and even made it easy to bend thick walnut. The trick for thick planks is to soak them well. Allow for the vinegar to penetrate all the way through. Then, when ready, pull one out, bend to the estimated shape and slide it back and forth across the soldering iron. The plank keeps it shape nicely and after a day or two the smell disappears!! :=)

After awhile it takes most of the fear out of those blunt or difficult hull shapes. Once the plank is bent and dry it can be sanded to the desired shape and thickness.

Hope this helps. Has anyone else used vinegar?

Dave

Re: Use of Ammonia When Soaking Timbers
 

I found this at the tail end of the Ship Modeling FAQ's answer to the question " How do I bend wood for a ship model?" (http://home.att.net/~ShipModelFAQ/smf-q021.html)

(His source is Understanding Wood, R. Bruce Hoadley, 1980, ISBN 0-918804-05-1

I think it's the wetting property of the ammonia that's providing the help ... it speeds up how quickly the wood soaks up the water. That's why Windex would help too.

(There are some interesting notes on soaking balsa at http://www.modelaircraft.org/498_6.asp, which probably applies to some extent to any wood.)

My main issue with using anything but water is worry about the effect of any residues in the wood over time. Ammonia would evaporate over time, as long as you use a brand that doesn't contain added ingredients. Same for vinegar - assuming you use the generic "white" vinegar which is simply acetic acid and water, although the idea of a residue of acid in my planks leaves me uneasy.

My personal preference: Start with plain water, and only use two additives: heat and time. If that isn't sufficient, laminate thinner stock.

- Tom

Re: Use of Ammonia When Soaking Timbers
 

My two cents worth.
Over the years I've had the most success with bending planking with just soaking the planks in plain distilled, very hot water. As plankowner said, steam is perhaps 'the best' method of all, but making a steam box is perhaps beyond what most modelers would care to do. I found this site (boat building), where the author gives various methods for bending wood. Of course he is dealing with larger timbers for real size boats, but the techniques are the same. You just have to scale down the times and allowances to our scales.
http://www.megspace.com/lifestyles/njmarine/Steam.html

PS, the method of microwaving is about the closest to steam bending, and works quite well for scale modeling. But don't soak the wood first. Wrap the strips in a wet paper towel, nuke for less then a minute (experiment with the time (start at ten to fifteen seconds at first), each wood type will vary on the time). The way microwaving works is from the inside out. The molecules of the wood start to heat, as the water in the paper towel is heated, it actually creates steam inside the wrap surrounding the wood strips, and the steam penetrates the wood fibers. Experiment with different wood types and time, as they will vary greatly from one type to the other and the size of your microwave.
Oh yeah! Wear gloves!

For bending of thicker pieces, I suggest laminating thin pieces, built up to the desired finished thickness. I once wanted to bend a 3/16" stock for a fiferail. I built up the thickness with 1/32" x 3/16" (six strips) stock strips laminated together with white glue. Let the glue almost set (about ten minutes), soak the laminated strips in hot water, bend and hold in a jig (with wax paper underneath) till dry. When you soak the laminated strips, the white glue semi liquefies and the strips 'slip' around each other, each to their own radius of the bend. You may have to 'over bend' a little to allow for 'spring back, but it depends on how tight the bend is and the type of wood used.

Re: Use of Ammonia When Soaking Timbers
 

Like most things in modeling getting the plank to run the way I want it can be everything from difficult to very fustrating. It depends on several variables, the type and thickness of the wood being used is perhaps the greatest.

The pros used and still use steam, its not necessary to build a steamer, soak the plank, lay it on the run then put a warm soldering iron along it.
It works for me on most woods but watch out for woods such as ebony, these can need a couple of tries with the iron.

A German company "Kammerlander" sell the iron I use, its got a "half moon" tip to it, they've web site and sell some great little kits.
Unfortunately I have no vested interest in this company.
rgds.
John

Re: Use of Ammonia When Soaking Timbers
 

Many thanks to everyone who responded to my post on ammonia soaking timbers. I've done a bit of experimenting with plain old ordinary basswood (lime wood). I cut some 1/16" x 3/16" x 16" in length planks. This is the working legnth that I would need to install the chine logs on my Model Shipways "Willie L. Bennett" Chesapeake Bay skipjack.

I used a 30W plank bending iron with a 7/8" x 1/2" round head and wooden bending jig that came with the iron. This is used to steam the water out of the planks. The jig has a 2" diameter half circle a 6" form that appromixately simulates the shape that one would need to do a bow plank.

One test plank was used for each mixture. Soak time for each plank was 2 hours.

Soaking was done in a plastic wallpaper tray that is 30" x 6 1/2" to a depth of about 1/2". A 1 ounce airbrush paint jar filled with water was set on top of the planks to keep them submerged. Once the planks were removed from the water, I simply shook off the excess water. The wetter the better.

1. Plain cold water.
2. Plain hot water (boiled in a tea kettle).
3. Cold water with a half cup of ammonia.
4. Hot water with a half cup of ammonia.
5. Cold water with 1/2 cup of white distilled vinegar.
6. Hot water with 1/2 cup of white distilled vinegar.

Results:

1. The easiest planks to bend were the ones soaked in vinegar. It is my perception that using hot water, even though it will cool down to room temperature in about half an hour has a slight edge over using just cold water.

2. The vinegar soaked planks were the only ones that would bend round into the 2" diameter circular part of the jig without breaking.

3. I upped the amount of vinegar to one cup and this seemed to make it a little easier to bend.

4. In my humble opinion, the ammonia did little more than stink up my workroom. Maybe a half cup was not enough, perhaps it was too much

5. I also ran two planks wet through my Amati plank bender successfully with out any breakage or splintering. However, I prefer the soaked plank and steam out the water with the planking iron method. It allows for a more controlled bend. Even wet, I did have a couple of planks break with the plank bender if I wasn't extremely careful. But this may be that I am unskilled at this point and need more practice.

To bend the side planks 1/16" x 3" at the widest part and about 13" long (one piece instead of individual planks). I found that an overnight soak with a cup of vinegar was required to warp the sides around the chine logs. The port side was a piece of cake, but the starboard side was a bear! I had to lay up the side and clamp it to pre-form the planks, let it dry and then refit and glue to the chine logs, stem and stern. I suspect that it was a matter of the run of the grain in the second side plank.

So, that's my experiment. I also wanted to try adding Windex to the water, but the only window cleaner that we had on hand was one that contained ammonia. I didn't want to start mixing combinations at this point.

Comments, criticisms and questions are welcome.

Cheers,

Al