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Phantom 1868

Posted by: Clayton - on -  09-25-2006

Well, here goes. This post is the beginning of what I hope will be a useful and much participated in shared projects thread on the Model Shipways Phantom.

I know that there are a few other members that have ordered the kit – I hope that we can learn from each-others’ experience and advice.

As I mentioned in my post on the scuttlebutt forum, what I have done so far is shape the hull and carve the “caprail step.” I am using Chuck Passaro’s guide, but I added one step to carving the step. After marking and scoring the line 1/8” below the caprail I made cuts perpendicular to that scored line. The cuts were about ¼” apart and at the same depth as the scored line (1/32”). I found that these cuts enabled me to remove the material without splitting the wood.

I will attach a photo to show where the extra cuts were made (marked in red), although they were made before the step was carved. (I failed to take a picture before carving the step.)

~Clayton


Posted by: Cincotta82 - on -  09-25-2006

Just bought my Phantom kit last week, awaiting it in the mail. Wanted to first amass a worthy tool arsenal, but the deal on modelexpo expires end of Sept. My work area is still a pipedream (my g-friend won't allow any place but the attic)... this isn't all that bad...all I need is a space heater for the winter and some serious furniture moving. It's unfinished, but i relish the idea of my own isolated tinkering area (need to get away from the old lady sometimes ;) ).

Anyway, the kit should arrive this week, and once golf season officially ends in upstate NY (any week now), I will optimistically begin a new hobby that should promise years of enjoyment and frustration.


Posted by: SSBN629 - on -  09-25-2006

OK, just waitin for my ship to come in!!!

Mean while back to the Bluenose.....


Posted by: Dragagon - on -  09-26-2006

Ah yes, waiting on the ship myself. My work area will be limited to where I can clean enough space to play. We don't have a spare room or anything for me to take over. In the meantime I guess I will go back to reading, gaming, and programming...

Christian


Posted by: Clayton - on -  09-26-2006

Work space is something of an issue for me as well. I have a desk and a couple of shelves in the bedroom, which is okay until my wife wants to go to sleep. Apparently the bright light and my grumbling are enough to keep her awake!

Last night I decided to make an adjustable waterline marker so that it will be easier to draw the lines for the copper. I can't decide if I should paint (prime) all of the hull or leave the part that will be coppered bare wood. Any ideas?


Posted by: Dragagon - on -  09-26-2006

I would probably go with priming the entire ship, then do the plates. Reason being is that you are going to need to wait for the primer to dry anyway, and then you don't try to get ahead of yourself with doing the copper while the rest of it is drying. Just my thoughts.

Christian


Posted by: Clayton - on -  09-27-2006

You make a good point Christian. I had not looked at it that way. One concern I have though is that the copper tape might stick better to wood than paint. I have a few modeling books, but none of them recommend one way or another.
~Clayton


Posted by: Dragagon - on -  09-27-2006

well you have to figure that the reason you prime a part for painting is so that the paint will stick to the object. The same would hold for the copper plates. By priming it before you put on the plates you are helping to seal the wood together so that the copper plates have something to stick to. Its been a bit frustrating when putting tape or foam to bare wood in that not all of the adhesive has something to stick to and you can damage the wood when the tape peals off, the primer helps this.

Christian


Posted by: Clayton - on -  09-28-2006

I bit the bullet last night and decided to paint to just past the waterline, and to copper up to that. I received and email from Chuck Passaro indicating that he did not paint under the copper tape.

It seems to be going okay. I opted to use individual plates, but chickened out and did not trim them down to 1/8” wide. I am hoping that the plates being a little larger than scale will not overwhelm the model.

I made a few mistakes in starting the line of the plates, but the overall effect seems pleasing.


Posted by: Dragagon - on -  09-28-2006

ETA for my boat is 4th Oct by UPS Ground. So I'll be able to start at that point.

Christian


Posted by: Clayton - on -  09-28-2006

Excellent. I hope that everyone elses' kits will arrive soon! I am having a great time with mine so far...


Posted by: SSBN629 - on -  09-28-2006

October 4th seems to be a good day for the ships to arrive. Along with Christian, mine will be here the same day.

Looks like Clayton gets to blaze the way for us. We get to learn from his success and mistakes.

Wish I could find my USB cable for my digital camera so I could upload some pictures. We moved into a new home 10 months ago and still haven't unpacked everything. And thanks to some friendly neighbors who helped us move, we're still finding things in the most unlikely places. I'ts going to take me another year to get everything put where I can find them again.

I've been previewing Chuck Passaro's practium that I've downloaded from Model-Expo, trying to get a heads up on what I'll need to be doing when the Phantom arrives. Clayton, I sure do appreciate the pictures of your Phantom, your tips and progress reports, keep em coming.

I was curious as to how many Phantoms were sold by Model-Expo, only 9 left from my last check. Thats down from 45 when I bought mine. So there are a few Phantoms out there.


Posted by: Dragagon - on -  09-29-2006

I dunno, but when i looked there were a ton, yesterday when i went to check the status of my order, there was only like 3, today there is 45 again. guess its a well sold, well stocked model. I need to charge my camera so I can take pictures along the way. It'll be fun.


Posted by: Clayton - on -  09-29-2006

I hope that this means that there are lots of people out there that starting the kit. Perhaps we will have more people join the discussion.

I am glad that the pictires are of some help. I don't know that I am doing anything the best way - but it seems to be working.

I hope that you-guys do take pictures and post them. I look forward to seeing how everythng goes once you recieve your kits and get started.


Posted by: stoneybrook - on -  09-30-2006

After reading all the post on this model I've decided to bite the bullet and just today ordered it. Over the years I've built plastic models such as the Constitution and did some customizing like making my own rigging and ratlines, put "oil lamp" lighting with batteries inside the hull; a wood whalenboat (I think was a Model Shipways) and just finished the Skaonnet Daysailer (MS) to get back into the swing of things. My eyes are set on the Benjamin Latham but thought I'd better do something on the easier intermediate level -- ergo, the Phantom.

Looking forward to exchanging ideas, helpful tips, photos with other Phantom modellers.

One tip I'll offer -- in reading the Latham directions I note you need small pins for hold parts as they dry. My wife is undergoing acupuncture so I asked her to bring home some needles. They much thinner than straightpin and should work nicely.

Stoneybrook (Ric)


Posted by: SSBN629 - on -  09-30-2006

Hi Ric!

Welcome to the Phantom thread.....

Thanks for reminding me about those acupunture needles. I forgot I have a bunch of them in a box somewhere. They would be great for pining down planks and other small pieces throughout the ship. Another reason to finish unpacking the rest of our move.


Posted by: dolphinamica - on -  10-01-2006

Use Deft, a lacquer based sanding sealer. It dries in an hour and is ready to sand. I use it on all wood parts except decks and mast poles, whether they are subsequently painted or not.

Use it out of the can for hulls. For small parts, get a bottle of nail polish remover, the kind with the little brush attached to the inside of the cap. Empty out the nail polish remover and clean the inside and the brush. Fill it with Deft and keep it handy to coat and sand all the small parts without ever having to clean your brush again.


Posted by: dolphinamica - on -  10-01-2006

I just ordered the Phantom, so I'll be joining the fleet.

I was a little reluctant at first, but I couldnt pass up the credit for the purchase price. Pilot boats arnt my favorite. They are usually not designed to sail anywhere; just to stand off harbor entrances in any sea or weather conditions in relative comfort and wait for a clipper ship to arrive. They are, however, a welcome sight after a long voyage, and a good repository for old sea captains like me.

I do wonder how it got its name. Probably from the clipper captains. I can just hear them grumbling when the weather gets real nasty "wheres that damn pilot boat?"


Posted by: Clayton - on -  10-02-2006

I have been wonering about the name and history as well. There is a topical history that comes with the kit instructions - not much though. Does anyone know of a good book or refrence for this boat?

Ric, I like the acupuncture needle idea! I have been using small t-pins, but they tend to split smaller parts. I will have to try your meathod...

Bob, so you would use the deft under the copper tape? I will have to get my wife to save her next nail polish remover bottle - great idea.

~Clayton


Posted by: Dragagon - on -  10-02-2006

Hmmm both of those sound like good ideas, maybe i'll have to hit the local med supply for some of those needles. the Deft might be easy to come by from home depot. this is good info to have before i start my model that is currently in Texas somewhere.


Posted by: Clayton - on -  10-02-2006

I found a couple of sites that have acupuncture needles that seem inexpensive. Would a guy need the guide tube to be able to use them?

$4.95 Sterile Disposable Acupuncture Needles. Features a metal spiral handle, insertion tube and individually packaged in boxes of 100.

$3.00 Acupuncture Needles - Silver handle without guide tube, 100


Posted by: SSBN629 - on -  10-02-2006

Hi Clayton,

You don't need the guide tubes. They are used by the person inserting the needle into the patient to make sure that the needle only goes in at a prescribe distance. For our use on the wood, you want to be able to insert the needle any distance you want. Also don't get too thin a needle, you will probably bend them while trying to push them into the wood. These needles can be hair thin. Also these needles do not have any type of head to help give you leverage. So at this point it's going to be an experiment to see if they work.

One more thing, don't get the long needles, stay around the 20mm length with a diameter no smaller than .2 mm. Regular stick pins are any where from .6 mm to .9 mm, to give you an idea what you will be working with...


Posted by: Clayton - on -  10-03-2006

Thanks for the tip(s) Steve; I am going to order a box and give them a try. It is a cheap enough experiment.

Has anyone received their kits yet? Last night I completed coppering one side of the hull, and I plan to finish the other side tomorrow night.

It seems to me that the tape may snag/lift with a little bit of pressure in the wrong direction. I am considering spraying the entire hull with a satin poly to seal the copper tape and the paint. I know that the paint should be 'flat' but it seems too dull.

~Clayton


Posted by: SSBN629 - on -  10-03-2006

My Phantom will arrive tomorrow, the 4th of October. I'll be starting on her as soon as she arrives. I also ordered some more acupuncture needles.. It'll be interesting to see how they work?


Posted by: stoneybrook - on -  10-04-2006

Sounds like there's a lot of anxiety in awaiting the arrival of "the new baby". I've been checking the tracking status and my Phatom should arrive tomorrow -- just in time for a 4-day weekend!. I've cleaned up a corner of my room, got my tools in order and have informed my wife I only have 6 months to complete the model in order to get get it "free". She liked the "free" part, but she also knows how I work and how easily I get distracted onto other projects. We'll see. Have been reading the downloadable docs and have various photos by others printed in large format and hanging about the room -- inspiration! Good luck to us all....and let's keep passing along the helpful tips and cautionary pitfalls.

Ric (Stoneybrook)


Posted by: Dragagon - on -  10-04-2006

Bwahahahaha. Mine arrived a day early *nya nya* I already started cutting out my templates, other than that I got nothing. I just printed out the Guide by Chuck Passaro and i've been reading my Jackstay. I did inventory all the parts and everything seems in order. Tonight i'll start looking at shaping that hull down to its proper dimensions. Off to an interesting start.

Christian


Posted by: Cincotta82 - on -  10-04-2006

Hey all, finally received my kit, situated my work area, and all set to start; but.......after ordering my key tools:

*columbina vaccum vise
*clamps, chisels, squares, etc...

....................the primary tool i plan to use on my frist step of hull sanding and shaping ( an electric hobby drill is backordered on modelexpo)......

Jeez!! Will I ever get started???????
(just about researched and prepared to my fullest sanity)


Corey


Posted by: Clayton - on -  10-04-2006

Well, I finished coppering tonight. As you can see the larboard side is much smoother. It was recommended to me that I “burnish” the plates with the backside of a fingernail to smooth them out. This worked very well, and the difference can be seen.

I was also told that a good idea is to rub (from bow to stern) the plates after they are all on with fine steel wool. This should smooth them out and remove oily fingerprints that might show up as the copper tarnishes. Have not bought any steel wool yet though…

I am still considering sealing the hull with some sort of aerosol poly. I keep snagging on the individual plates as I handle the hull.

Looking forward to seeing everyone else’s phantoms as they progress!

~Clayton


Posted by: SSBN629 - on -  10-05-2006

OK, got mine!

I didn't realize how small this model is. Unless there is a reference when viewing these models online, it's hard to judge size. It's only 9-3/8" long from stem to stern without the keel on it. Oh well, guess I'll be wearing my magnifying goggles throughout this build... I've sanded down the keel to the specifications of the template, and set the center line down the keel with the outside reference lines at 1/16" each side of the center line. My only question now is how do I know that the center line is actually the center of the Hull? And Oh by the way, in the practium it referred to only having to remove 1/8" off the stern to bring it to the proper size. Well I had to remove a 1/2" of wood to get the templates to come together at the middle of the hull.


Posted by: stoneybrook - on -  10-06-2006

My Phantom was waiting for me on the front stoop when I got home from work. After letting to dog out (first things first) I popped open the box and gave it a quick lookover. I too was surprised at the size -- I thought the hull was a lifeboat and they forgot to put in the "real" boat hull. Live and learn. Then I checked the parts list and tools. Everything's there. Read through the Jackstay last night. I have a 4 day weekend to get started. I'll post photos of my progress. I'll try to work slowly, deliberately and with accuracy, however I have a photo of my next challenges hanging over work area to keep me moving forward -- Benjamin Latham Grand Banks Fishing Schooner. Good luck and Godspeed to us all!

Ric


Posted by: dolphinamica - on -  10-06-2006

Yes, use the Deft Lacquer Sanding Sealer under the copper plates. In fact, I use it on all wood parts, except those you might want to stain first. I use it whether the wood is subsequently painted or not. Deft is just a sanding sealer. It seals the wood and allows you to sand to a much finer profile before painting, thereby preventing subsequent coats of paint from raising the grain. It’s of no use to sand bare wood much finer than 120 to 150 grit, since the first coat of any paint or clear coating will automatically raise the grain to a 120 to 150 grit profile, (make it fuzzy). Of course, after applying a couple coats of Deft, just sand with 120 or 150 grit under the copper plates, since the plates will cover it anyway.

I like Deft Lacquer Sanding Sealer for two reasons. It dries in 30 minutes to an hour, and it has a very fine filler powder in it that imparts a sort of antiqued satin look to wood if the wood is not subsequently painted. Clear varnish and urethanes are just too shiny and slick. It is available at Home Depot.

While I’m thinking about paints, Floquil has a very interesting article on scale painting, which can be downloaded from their website. Its basic premise is that the smaller the scale, the flatter and grayer the color. This is because the mind does not fully perceive a 2 foot long model as a small version of the real thing. It perceives it as being the real thing, but far away, and the farther away something is the flatter and grayer the color is. A full size locomotive may be shiny black, but when modeled in HO scale, shiny black looks wrong. A flat or semi flat very dark charcoal looks right.

For black hulls and black parts on a model ship, I love Floquil’s lacquer based “Grimy Black”. It’s in their “Railroad Colors” series. I know, you’re thinking “I’m not putting anything called Grimy Black on my ship,” but I’ve tried every black made and this one just looks right. Try it. I have yet however, to find the perfect white.


Posted by: imforgvn - on -  10-06-2006

Funny how all of us (we?) phantom builders sounded shocked by its size. Am I the only one who found the instructions and parts list vague? It doesn't say when to paint (before or after coppering) and I had no idea that the templates were supposed to meet in the middle (centerline). I guess I'm just a greenhorn (this is my first attempt). I also didn't anticipate spending another $200 for tools and stuff. My wife didn't anticipate me converting the den into a workshop either!
The Jackstay was quite a read. Man, I feel like I'm building a real boat. In 3 days I've faired the hull, busted out the transom while carving the gunnels and have just finished shaping the deck. I found that using my dremmel with a round sandpaper head worked great to get the gunnels to size. Any suggestions on cutting in the waiste? Tonight I get to figure out which piece of wood to make the keel out of and how to attach it to the hull. Then I have to figure out how to curve the keel up to the bowsprit. If I remember the technique was shown in the Jackstay...
It is slow going but kind of fun.


Posted by: Clayton - on -  10-06-2006

Hey Mike, welcome to the forum! Sounds like you are further along than I am. I was less than impressed with the instructions as well. Have you checked out the Phantom Practicum?


Posted by: imforgvn - on -  10-07-2006

Hey Clayton,

I downloaded the practicum yesterday. What a Godsend! So technical yet succint and easy to understand. I now know that I'm going to finish this thing and it is going to look good when I'm done too!!! seriously though, it's taken me about 5 hours to finish the hull and deck. Cutting the waste took some time and was very delicate work. Tonight I do some coppering. That should be fun! I'm such a geek.

Mike


Posted by: SSBN629 - on -  10-08-2006

OK! For anyone interested, the .20 mm, the .25 mm & the .30 mm acupuncture needles are too thin to penetrate the wood. They bend too easily.

I,ve order some .4 mm - 2" long needles made for use on animals. I'll see if they hold up any better.

The .30 mm needles would probably work with balsa wood.


Posted by: Clayton - on -  10-08-2006

Mike:
So how did you remove the waste from the bulwark? That is the very next step for me and I am not sure how I want to go about it. I will probably follow Chuck’s advice in the practicum unless you (or anyone else) might suggest an easier way to do it. I am a little nervous about this part of the modeling process because of all of the warnings about how easy it is to break a piece of the bulwark off while thinning it.

How’s the coppering going? Once I got started it was a lot of fun for me, and the completed product is very satisfying to look at. I would enjoy seeing some pictures of your progress.


Steve:
I was just about to order some acupuncture needles, but will wait to hear how the 0.4mm ones work for you. Keep us posted!

~Clayton


Posted by: SSBN629 - on -  10-08-2006

Hello Clayton,

When it comes time to remove the wood from the bulwark, I'll be using my Dremel with one of those cylinder shaped sanding attachments to help bring down the thickness of the wood. Then I'll use a sanding detailer I got from Micro Mark to smooth up the surface. I've heard some people go to Wal-Mart and buy those manicure sanding sticks to do detailed work.

I've learned how to have a lite touch when using my Dremel, it has come in very useful to me. In fact, I used my Dremel to take off the excess wood from the Phantom's hull and keel.


Posted by: Clayton - on -  10-08-2006

Hey Steve,

Good to know - I have a Dremel in my woodshop, but never thought of using with ship modeling. You mention having to maintian a "lite touch." Have you ever removed too much wood all at once?

I will have to think about trying that out...

~Clayton


Posted by: SSBN629 - on -  10-08-2006

Hi Clayton,

I haven't screwed up yet, but there is always a 1st.

Different woods sand differently. I would suggest you get some scrap wood similar to what you will be using during the build, draw some lines and curves on it and practice sanding with your dremel and see how to sand up to the lines. I have even glued pieces of wood together to see how I could hollow it out.

Practice and experience are the best advise.


Posted by: imforgvn - on -  10-09-2006

Clayton,
The answer is very carefully! I actually started chiselling it as per the plans but Chuck's practicum is just so much smarter. I guess you can say I cheated because I used a dremmel with a small round sander head to sand away at the bulwarks on the inside. I trimmed it down to just about 1/16 on the inside. I then traced a line on the outside for the waste and scored it with my exacto knife. After that I cut lines perpendicular to the scored waste line about 1/32 deep (approximate) and then just nibbled the litte sections out with the exacto until I had the waste completely cut to about 1/32 deep all around. After that I used my dremmel with a small med fine sanding disk and worked it around the outside of the bulwards where I'd cut the waste in. Being very carefull I cut what I think is a pretty good waste and the bulwarks are about 1/16 all the way around.
To get the deck, the stern and the bow done I used a small chisel for the heavy stuff and then used my exacto to cut the curve in the bow. I don't know all the terminology yet but to square off where the deck meets the bulwarks I first used a small chisel and the exacto knife and finished it off with the dremmel w/ small sanding disk attached. Finally I sanded the deck to what I think is the proper amount of camber(?) so that the middle is higher than where it meets the bulwarks.
All I can say is it takes time and caution and thank GOD for the dremmel!!
As to coppering, it is going to take forever but it is very therapeutic and I don't mind taking my time if it comes out right.
Thanks and chat at you later!


Posted by: imforgvn - on -  10-09-2006

I was just looking at the pictures of the coppering you'd done. It looks real nice, especially the way that you have run the courses. I was wondering, did you use the copper tape the way it came or did you cut it in half the way that Chuck's practicum advised? I've been cutting it in half along the length and then cutting it into 1/4 inch pieces. It is taking me forever to lay it and since yours looks so good I just might start using the tape without cutting it in half.
Thanks
Mike


Posted by: Clayton - on -  10-09-2006

Hey Mike, thanks - I am glad that you think my coppering looks nice.
Yep - I became frustrated with trying to cut the tape in half and decided to leave it 1/4" wide. I might have been willing to spend the time cutting them in half if I felt that I could do a good job. I could not develop a method to cut the pieces straight, even from longer pieces.

Clayton707 suggested a good idea though: He thought that super gluing a 8-10" piece of the copper tape, backing face-down, to some cardboard (like the kind from a notepad) might help keep it steady. Then a guy could make the lengthwise cut and then the individual plate cutes. This might work, assuming that the CA does not seep through the backing.

Have you (or anyone else) cut in the scuppers yet? I am wondering what size drill bit to use.

~Clayton


Posted by: imforgvn - on -  10-10-2006

I ended up cheating too. I used the full width of the tape but overlapped it about 1/32 to make it look thinner. I also didn't bother cutting it into plates, I just ran the tape the full lenght of the hull and then scribed the joints in with my exacto afterwards. I'm going to try to figure out how to post a picture to show you my finished hull. Tell me what you think.
As far as the scuppers go...Chuck's practicum shows them located midway up the bulwarks. Obviously that would leave the poor sailors waiste deep in water. So I am going to think a bit on starting it even with the decking and waterways on the inside (I'm going to lay some manilla folder board on the inside of the rough deck to approximate the finished height of the deck after I've installed decking and waterways) and then I'm going to drill is pilot hole on one end of the scupper. I'll then use my dremmel with a small cutting bit to grind out the lenght of the scupper. I think that will be the easiest way. What do you think?


Posted by: Winston_S - on -  10-10-2006

Hi gang. While I'm on a completely different build I did have a brief comment on Dremels. I've just recently acquired the Dremel Mini Mite (cordless). After using it, I dont' know how I used any other. My regular Dremel and other rotary tools have gone into retirement! LOL


Posted by: falconsfan55 - on -  10-11-2006

speaking of dremels, i have the 400/xpr and really like it, but the economy brand of accessories i bought off e-bay is very dissappointing. what is a good source for quality attachments?


Posted by: dolphinamica - on -  10-11-2006

I think your copper plates look great! I just received my Phantom and that’s exactly what I’m going to do. The real Phantom was probably re-plated a few times in its life. Who really knows how big the plates were. Probably no bigger than two men could hand them up a ladder and nail on. How big would that be to scale?

You’re exactly right on the scupper issue. I noticed the problem right off in the Practicum. Scuppers are always at deck level, not only to evacuate sea water off the deck as fast as possible, but also to keep fresh water from pooling. Standing fresh water is a sure invitation for wood rot. I know; I constantly fought the problem on my wooden boat.


Posted by: duhawk - on -  10-11-2006

Clayton, can you tell me how to access the instructions for model expo?
Your link shows the following and I can access the Phantom if I use your link, but can not otherwise. Are there other on-line instructions on their website? When I look, I don't see anything.

http://www.modelexpo-online.com/ins...ntomNew_Web.pdf

Thanks for your help. Mike


Posted by: Clayton - on -  10-11-2006

If I recall correctly copper plates were almost always 14”x 48”; that would put the correct scale sized plates for the Phantom at 0.15" x 0.5" or close to 1/8” x 1/2” (if I did the math correctly). I think that Mike’s (imforgvn) copper plates look great; I really like the lines of it. Great job!

Tonight I am going to finish thinning the bulwarks – I have been carving them. From all of the good recommendations I should try my Dremmel, but I am afraid to start a new process right now and mess something up. Carving them down is easy as long as you take your time.

Chuck mentioned in his practicum that he damaged part of the deck while drilling a hole (hawse?). I think that I will do my best to drill all of the holes and cut the scuppers before putting in the deck and waterway. With patience and good measurements it should be possible, right?

Mike (duhawk) are these the links that you need?

Instructions for Phantom by MS
MS Phantom page

~Clayton


Posted by: imforgvn - on -  10-11-2006

Clayton,
Thanks for appreciating my coppering. It took long enough! Last night I cut my first scupper. Took me about an hour to finish it. Learned a lot. I did it before I finished the decking. I did lay a piece of the decking down to give me the correct level for the bottom of the scupper. I drilled two 1/16 holes 25mm apart from each other and cut the scupper out with my exacto knife. Although I was successful, I think the scupper opening is too big (heightwise). So as I was drifting off to sleep trying to convince myself to live with it, I decided that I was going to fill it with wood filler (I know, it is shame) and then redo it using my dremmel and a cutting disk. I think the disk is just about 25 mm in diameter and about 1/32 thick so by marking the location of the scupper I should be able to carefully "grind" the wood out from both sides by side cutting it. That way I can control the size of the scupper and ensure that it is properly located. Thoughts?
Mile
p.s. Don't fear the dremmel! With a little patience and a steady hand you won't ruin anything, and will allow you to do things more efficiently. I bought an accessory kit that had about 30 attachments and about 75 sanding disks. It is awesome.


Posted by: Clayton - on -  10-11-2006

Mike - I would be curious to hear/see how the scuppers turn out by using the dremmel and sanding disk. That is something that I might like to try. How will you cut-in the shorter ones on the aft deck? How did the first scupper you cut turn out too tall? Was the drill bit too big, or was it difficult cutting out the remainder with the knife?

Also, did you get the accessory kit online?

~Clayton


Posted by: SSBN629 - on -  10-11-2006

Ya know, I just don't like the looks of the scupper on this ship, so I decided to be creative and make a couple of small scuppers and locate them by the fake bulwark stanchions. I'm not trying to create a museum quality ship any how. I'm just having fun and experimenting at the same time. Actually I'm not at the point of putting the scuppers in and I might change my mind by the time I get there. Besides, I like to hear what you all are doing, and see how your progress is going.


Posted by: Clayton - on -  10-11-2006

Okay, I went with what several of you were advising and used my dremmel to reduce the bulwarks. I have to say that it worked really well – I appreciate the advice! After getting the thickness close, I used fine sandpaper to finish it off.

The scuppers were not too bad for me. I used a 1mm twist bit to make multiple holes along the length (as Chuck suggests) then used a #11 blade and sand paper to finish them off. A piece of the decking with manila folder stuck to it (I used a slice from the lick-and-stick part to adhere it) worked as a fine height gauge.

Guess the decking goes on next. Has anyone done that yet? I have read a few options for gluing it down in such a way that it won’t warp. Has anyone had any success with this?

~Clayton


Posted by: imforgvn - on -  10-12-2006

Clay,
To cut the shorter ones on the aft deck I just cut a little shallower so that only about 1/2 of the disk diameter actually cut through the bulwarks. On the forward ones I cut until the shaft hit the bulwarks.
The problem with the first attempt was that I wasn't steady enough with my exacto so I took a little here and a little there and before you know it I had a bay window in my bulwark! Anyway, I glued in a piece of 1/8 x 1/8 leftover from the keel and faired it with wood putty. After it dried I cut the waiste line back in and sanded everything fair. I recut the scupper. After I'd painted it you couldn't tell from the outside. I'm going to paint the inside of the bulwarks cream so that should hide the patch job pretty well.
I purchased the dremmel kit at Home Depot for about $30.00. Like I said, it has a lot of neat attachments and has really come in handy.
Tonight I plan on cutting and installing the decking. I was thinking about using 3M spray adhesive (light coat). I know that Chuck suggested something in his practicum but I don't recall what it was.
I attached some pictures showing my repair, cutting method and finished cut.
Take care...
Mike


Posted by: ChuckPassaro - on -  10-12-2006

Hey folks,

I hope my guide is helping with your project. It was written for first timers and there are many more methods for creating the scuppers. Here is one that I would recommend. I hope it isnt too late. Mike did a fine fine job and the technique is similar.

Just cut the entire bulwarks down to the deck level where the scupper slot is located. You can sand it really neat and clean. Then build the bulwarks up again using 1/4 x 1/4 strips. When you glue them in place leave a space which will form the scupper slot. You might have adjust the slot with some sand paper afterwards but it will essentially be finished. Finally,sand the outside and inside of the bulwarks to their proper thickness. For the scupper along the waist you might need to use a 1/4" x 1/2" strip. The bulwark stanchions will hide the seam on the inside so you wont have to paint it. The outside will be painted after the seem is hidden with some wood filler and sanded.

Chuck

Hope this is helpful. I am enjoying watching the progress of all of these Phantoms.


Posted by: imforgvn - on -  10-12-2006

Chuck,
GREAT idea. I almost want to redo mine with your technique but I've spent almost 2 week getting the hull faired, coppered and painted I need to move on or go crazy. Even though it is my first model in 30 years and first wooden ship model every, I want it to be as perfect as possible. In fact the reason I'm building it is kind of zen. I want to be able to focus, be patient, be quiet and just "be in the moment" as I'm working. Anyway, tonight the deck goes in. I was going to use 3M spray adhesive (light coat). What do you think?
Again, I can't thank you enough for your practicum and look forward to the next.
Mike


Posted by: ChuckPassaro - on -  10-12-2006

Your welcome,

I dont think the 3m spray wil be sufficient over time. The deck might separate from the hull. I just used CA (Super Glue). It worked fine but you have to work quickly. You could also use plain old white glue but the drying time will be longer.

I am glad the practicums are being used and appreciate the feedback. Its this feedback that shows me I am not wasting my time and I cant wait to start on the next one. I have a few things up my sleave but wont reveal them yet. I have to try and raise the bar with each project.

Keep the pics coming.

Chuck


Posted by: imforgvn - on -  10-12-2006

Chuck,
Do you use the gel or liquid CA?
Also, what do you suggest for my next project? I'm a little squirmish about trying POB but the result is so awesome I don't know if I can resist.
Mike


Posted by: ChuckPassaro - on -  10-12-2006

I use a liquid CA. (JET)

I have to be honest with you. I dont think a solid hull is any easier than a POB kit. It is just different. In the case with the Phantom, there is no planking. But the Sultana kit I just finished is planked. In my opinion you could have just as much success with either style of kit. The Armed Virgina Sloop is a great model to build as well as Caldercrafts Sherbourne. What I wouldnt do is jump right into an HMS VICTORY project. If you give me an idea of what style of ship you are interested in I could make some suggestions.

Chuck


Posted by: imforgvn - on -  10-12-2006

I'm thinking of doing the Benjamin Latham from Model Shipways as my next project. It is a pretty sleek looking gal.
I'm planning on visiting the Charles W. Morgan at Mystic Seaport this weekend. It looks like a nice ship with a lot of history but all I can find are "Advanced" kits. The Constituion intrigues me...I see it around Newport from time to time. I guess I like sleek "minimalist" type ships. I really don't have any affection for the gaudy looking things. No offense but the Mayflower, although historically significant is too boxy and ornate for my liking (looks like a wooden shoe!). Again, I haven't really settled into my tastes yet.
I appreciate your advice.
Mike


Posted by: imforgvn - on -  10-13-2006

Well I did the decking last night. When I woke up this morning I didn't like the (what do you call them??) simulated ribs that create the scupper divisions so I'm going to redo them tonight. Other than that the decking wasn't perfect (waterways, which I used manila folder per Chuck's suggestion) but I think I can live with it. Plodding along...plodding along.


Posted by: Clayton - on -  10-16-2006

I just worked on getting the decking in as well; I used CA to glue it in and that worked fine for me. I have made a template (on graph paper) for the waterway incase more than one attempt is necessary to get a perfect fit.

The manila folder that I have on hand does not match too well with the decking. Has anyone else noticed this as well? Are there variations in color with these folders? I sure like the idea of using it for the waterway; it will look much better than what is recommended in the kit instructions.

I was looking at the waterway in the pictures on the Model Expo site (image attached to this post) and noticed that the bulwark and stanchions are painted white. I decided to go with that option as well. I also decided to paint the step at the waist white as well. I did this mostly because I could not find a bottle of “cream” paint at the hobby shop.

Has anyone drilled the mast holes yet? I am wondering how people are doing that. I will probably use my drillpress, but it is a complicated setup


Posted by: imforgvn - on -  10-16-2006

My manilla folder color didn't match perfectly either but I like the faint contrast so it didn't bother me too much. I painted the inside of the bulwarks, stanchions, and caprail all cream (buttermilk to be exact)
I have drilled my mast holes already. I cut a piece of foam to the angle that the instruction manual (I'd like 5 minutes alone with the guy who wrote that useless thing) indicated and used a hand drill. I first located the holes and cut away the decking with the exacto. I then started off with a 1/6 bit held against the foam to the approximate angle and started drilling. I then used the 5/32 bit to finish off the hole. When I inserted the masts and held it against the plans the rake angle was off so I did a little more drilling to widen the hole a bit. This way I can shim it to the right angle when I step the mast.
I also put two coats of waterbased poly on the deck to protect it and bring out the highlights.
Last night I finished almost all of the cap rail hardware, fabricated the chainplates, installed them and tied on the deadeyes. To be honest I really enjoyed doing it. The only problem is that I used the 1/32 x 3/32 for my cap rail and it didn't really hang out over the bulwarks enough for me to put the chainplates through so I cut some VERY small pieces of 1/32 x 3/32 and "extented" the caprail at the chainplates to fake it. I've seen this on many bigger ships and figured that although the Phantom didn't have them it was nautically acceptable.
Anyway, I wish you luck on using the drill press. I think that if you use a hand drill (one with variable speed) you can do it by hand/eye. As long as the hole is in the right place and you drill so that there is some play you can shim it later. In fact, the practicum suggests shimming becuase most humans aren't able to drill a hole accurately when there are two axis to consider.
Well, tonight I start building deck structures. Should be fun.


Posted by: Clayton - on -  10-16-2006

Mike, it looks like (from you most recent photo) that you penciled in the deck caulking. If so, I wonder if you did this before or after applying the poly. I have already “drawn” in the caulk lines, but don’t know if brushing on a clear finish will lift or smear the lines.

It sounds like you are really moving along – I would enjoy seeing some pictures. I plan/hope to have the waterway and stanchions done by mid-week, and will post a couple more pictures then.

How did you bend the stern portion of the caprail? I am going to try Chuck’s suggestion of cutting it out of a thin sheet of basswood. When I was at the hobby shop I noticed that there were also thin sheets of walnut and mahogany. I considered using that for the caprail and structure roofs – but it would have cost quite a bit more than the basswood (which can be stained after all!).


Posted by: imforgvn - on -  10-16-2006

Clayton,
You are correct, I did pencil it in. I did it befor the poly and because the poly is water based it didn't smear the graphite. I only used two coats because I didn't want it to be too glossy.
I bent the stern rail by steaming it and forming it as I installed. I have been using brush-on CA (what a Godsend). I sarted on the starboard side and glued about 1/3 of the rail. I then held the starboard side down (just in case) and applied glue to the middle third and worked it/pressed it down. I then did the same with the port side and finished it up that way. I cut the angle where the stern cap met the port and starboard cap by eye before installing it. It worked out well but if I had to do it all over again I would have done it as Chuck suggested becuase I like the look of having more overhang to the outboard.
I guess I'm moving fairly quickly but I am really trying to take my time. I usually work on it for 2, sometimes 3 hours at a time. I'll tell you, doing the chainplates and tying the deadeyes was quite a challenge but a lot of fun.
My camera batteries ran down this weekend and my charger was at the office so I will take some pictures tonight.
Take care.
-M


Posted by: imforgvn - on -  10-16-2006

New idea?
I don't know if anyone does this or not but I just came up with it this weekend. Many metal parts need to be painted black. I've been looking at some close-ups and notice that the paint looks very "globby" on the smaller items. I have a patience problem and washing, sanding, priming every small metallic part just isn't going to happen with me. So what I now do is use a black Sharpie marker. It covers anything with a nice thin coat of black without needing to prepare the surface too much. It also takes a second coat very well and should be "permanent" especially if the finished model is kept under glass.
Any thoughts?


Posted by: Clayton - on -  10-17-2006

This is as far as I have gotten so far. I decided to use the drillpress to drill the mast holes. There is some set-up time involved, but the system works with the modeling base that made and the angles come out fairly accurate.

The bulwark stanchions are done on the aft deck. To help keep the model looking crisp I painted the basswood strip white after sanding it down to the correct size. Then I cut the individual stanchions as close to the correct length as possible so that I would not have to sand them down too much after gluing them on.


Posted by: imforgvn - on -  10-17-2006

It's looking good! It is tedious isn't it? I sanded the strips down first too but I didn't paint them. I also cut them down to about 1/16 above the bulwark top and then ground them down with a fine disk on my dremmel. I painted them and the bulwarks after they were installed.
I've gotten as far as the aft traveller. If you notice, I added little platforms for the chainplates because my cap rail didn't extend outboard enough.
The traveller took me about an hour to do. I didn't have the 1/8 brass to make the traveller top from so I took the 1/16 brass strip that came with the kit, cut two lengths and filed a small slot in each one. I then super glued both halves together onto a piece of 1/64 plywood that I bought. After that I cut the assembly out and cut the slot through the plywood and cleaned it all up. I had some gardening wire that was about 22 gauge so I cut it to length to make the legs. I think it came out pretty good although when I zoom my camer to its limits I can see EVERY tiny blemish. Perfection...such an unattainable goal for we humans.
Mike


Posted by: Clayton - on -  10-18-2006

Mike the fairleads look good. Were they difficult to make? I know that they are simple in concept – but they are so small! I am going to have to get a good set of pliers…

So there was enough brass left over after making the chainplates to make the top of the traveler? That is a good idea.

Say, I purchased a sheet of thin brass, mostly to construct the pintles and gudgeons. Has anyone cut thin metal like this before? I am planning to use an exacto blade to cut it, but if anyone has a better idea I am all ears.

~Clayton


Posted by: imforgvn - on -  10-18-2006

Clayton,
Thanks. The fairleads weren't hard to do. What I did was put a touch of super glue on the bottom of the deadeye and kind of stuck it onto the caprail right above the chainplate. Before I did this I used two tiny clothspins that I bought a Michael's Craft and Hobby to hold the line out and down on either side of the chainplate as I glued the deadeye down. After the glue set I simply pull each side of the line up along the groove in the deadeye and tied a double knot at the top. I then applied a touch of super glue to the knot and cut it. The next time I do this I am going to only tie a single knot and glue it so that the ends don't stick up so high. I used a set of lockable tweezers to hold the deadeye and I wear magnifying headgear so it wasn't too hard to do.
As far as the traveler top, yes there was just enough brass strip.
Tonight I finish the aft companionway. I am going to try to add a door that will slide up out of the entrance when the top is slid back. It should add a touch of realism.
Cutting the brass could be tough. How thick is it? An exacto sounds like the way to go but you could also take a sharp chisel and give it a good whack along a pre-drawn line.
-M


Posted by: Clayton - on -  10-19-2006

This is as far as I got tonight – completed the bulwark stanchions. They sure add a lot of scale and detail to the model.

I did start on the rudder; got as far as painting and coppering it. But I can’t decide how to attach it. I had considered using copper tape for the pintles and gudgeons but the copper does not seem to paint very well. What are you-all doing? Mike (imforgvn) mentioned using a permanent marker to color item black but I noticed that CA tends to re-liquefy the ink so I am worried about smearing. Mike, did you use the marker after gluing the items on?

The caprail is also becoming a challenge for me. Chuck’s idea with the manila folder waterways works so well that I thought I could use the same material for a pattern for the caprail. Boy am I glad that I did that! If I had tired cutting the caprail right out of the 1/32” sheet of basswood I would have wasted a lot of wood.

How is everyone else doing? Have any of you begun your Phantom build yet?

~Clayton


Posted by: imforgvn - on -  10-19-2006

Clay,
Great job with the stantions! For the rudder I kind of used Chucks picture as a guide. I used black electrical tape. First I wrapped 3, 1/16 pieces of electrical tape around the rudder as grudgeons before I coppered it. After coppering the rudder up to the waterline, I glued 3 small strips of tape above the grudgeons. I then glued the rudder stem into the hole in the hull (beforehand I made sure that all of the grudgeons were spread apart to port and starboard) and then cut the grudgeons to size and glued them to the hull. You can see how it worked out by the picture. After I had done it I noticed that I didn't align the middle set very well and will probably redo them at some point but the process worked.
As for the Sharpie, I only use it on the tiny metal parts so I haven't any experience with CA making it reliquify.
Last night I spent a lot of time making the hatch on the aft companionway so that it would slide back and forth. It worked but I didn't like it and tore it off. I have thought of another way to make the channels so I will try that tonight. I think I'm going to start drinking beer while working...
Mike


Posted by: Clayton - on -  10-19-2006

Mike – your rudder looks great. Your idea of using the electrical tape is a good one. I had been considering the use of automotive pinstriping – but I doubt that is any better than electric tape. Did you use CA to glue the tape on? I have a vague memory of reading somewhere that CA could tarnish or cloud copper. What method did you use?

Before coppering my rudder I cut three notches in it, as shown in both the instructions and Chuck’s guide. I regret that now because I will have to fill them in or make a new rudder.

To securely attach the rudder to the sternpost I used two 1/2” long x 0.03” diameter brass rods. First I drilled two holes in the sternpost and glued the rods in. Then I pressed the ruder into the rods to mark their locations and drilled corresponding holes in the rudder. This way I can slide the rudder on and off while working on the pintles & gudgeons. And eventually I can glue it to the rods if I need to.


Posted by: imforgvn - on -  10-19-2006

Great idea about the pins. I just have it secured to the hull at the top. I drilled a small hole and just glued the end of the rudder stem into it. The tape for the grudgeons is actually under the copper so I didin't glue it at all. The small peices of tape for the pintles I glued right to the copper. Any excess CA I just delicately scraped off with the tip of my exacto. I don't know about CA discoloring copper but I'm probably going to use amonia or something to tarnish the copper when I'm done. I think a bit of a weathered look would be better than having a pristine, shiny copper hull.
I like the idea of the rods. It would have made it a bit easier for me to work on the rudder. If you keep the rods in, will they show or is the rudder so closely fit that they won't be noticeable?
You know, I had the hardest time trying to figure out how to make a cradle to hold the hull while I worked on it. I was so focused on making it level so I could draw an accurate waterline that I couldn't get my mind around how to set it up. What I ended up doing was installing the rods f(or mounting it to the launching ways) in the hull and using the same procedure you described to locate a couple of holes in a scrap piece of wood. I then inserted the rods into the piece of wood and that is my holder.


Posted by: Clayton - on -  10-19-2006

The rudder sets so close to the sternpost that the rods are not visible. I also tried to place them where they would be covered by the gudgeons.

To make my base I used two of the hull shaping templates (perhaps #2 and #7, but I cant recall for sure) to trace a line on 1/8" plywood. Then I marked the waterline on the plywood and cut them so that the lines would be level. Then I just cut dados with a table saw in a 1X4 to hold the plywood.

The neat part is that I used sticky back rubber to line the plywood. I got a sheet of the rubber at a hobby sore for about $1.50. This stuff is perfect. It pads the model and keeps it from sliding around (it grips very well). You can see the base/holder in the attached picture.


Posted by: imforgvn - on -  10-19-2006

Your cradle rocks!!! (pardon the pun). I'm such a moron. Since I'm a greenhorn and most plans I've seen and used in my life were not 1:1 scale, I didn't notice that sheet 1 of the plans was in fact 1:1 scale. I guess I could have gotten the waterline measurement from that but the plan instructions were useless so I just did it by eye. I couldn't figure out how to establish the height of the two cutouts for the cradle so that the hull would be level yet at the correct height for the waterline to be acuarately scribe. I'm probably not making much sense but I'm still speechless from the realization that 1) I'm an idiot and 2) your cradle is so far superior to my setup...
Oh well, what doesn't kill you makes you stronger (smarter too).
Mike


Posted by: SSBN629 - on -  10-19-2006

OK, I'm back!

Had to get the cattle off the mountain before hunting season started. !#*& trigger happy jack asses, they all think they're Jedediah Smith. Even on Private property some of the ranchers still lose a few.

Oh by the way! Don't bother getting any of the acupuncture needles. Even .4mm needles still bend to much to be used for the soft basswood. Something about the metal those needles are made of makes them too soft. My wife's sowing needles are the same diameter as the .4mm acupuncture needles but for some reason the sowing needles are much stronger. This is something that a metallurgist could explain, but it just isn't really important to me right now. I did find that if the wood was soaked in water, the .4mm needles would work ok on the softer wood. This might come in handy down the road when planking up a hull with the wet wood so as to help hold the form on the hull while drying.

I'm way behind on the Phantom. I've got the keel installed and ready to start the copper planking. Sure do appreciate you guys blazing the trail. It's been interesting to see what progress you've made and the tips and techniques I can pick up from you.

Thanks a bunch. I'll be following some of your suggestions.


Posted by: Clayton - on -  10-20-2006

That is the great thing about this forum; we can all learn from each other. Keeping up with posts on this thread have encouraged me to keep working on my build, and to do the best that I can.

Steve - welcome back from the mountains! Keep us updated, I would enjoy seeing some pictures.

~Clayton


Posted by: Clayton - on -  10-20-2006

I was beginning to wonder if I would be able to complete the caprail. It took me four attempts with manila folder patterns/prototypes to get the rail just the right size. I cut it out of one piece of 1/32" basswood, and and glued it on oversized and then sanded it down. That was a VERY good suggestion from Chuck’s practicum. Had I not cut the rail oversized I don’t think I could have glued it on exactly right. As it is I had to make two attempts at gluing the rough rail on.

Is anyone else painting the caprail? I used the light brown paint that came with the kit – and it contrasts nicely with the white bulwarks. I am considering painting the roofs of the deck structures the same color. Any ideas on that?

Also got the rudder complete and on tonight. I followed Mike’s method (from 7 posts previous) for the pintles and gudgeons except I used copper tape. Then I painted the tape once it was on.

Things are starting to look good!


Posted by: walter cooper - on -  10-21-2006

You guys are doing a SUPER JOB!!Keep up the great work!!Clayton,you must be learning alot!! Walter


Posted by: Clayton - on -  10-21-2006

Hey Walter. Yeah, I am learning a great deal as I work on this build and from all of the posts people have been making in this thread. This is a lot of fun and the Phantom is a great confidence builder; not a bad kit to start the hobby with.


Posted by: ChuckPassaro - on -  10-21-2006



I agree..everyone is doing a great job on the phantom. You are all progressing very quickly with your models. I do want to point one thing out to Mike and Clayton that I hope will save both of you some grief later on though. The cap rails you added look really clean and crisp. A fine job. BUT.. Look at the plans where the bowsprit is inserted under the caprail. You will see that there is an iron band that secures the bowsprit outboard. The ends of the iron band are glued to the stem on both sides. Both of your caprails extend too far out over your stem. The folks taking my ship modeling class all did the same thing (including me!) and I am thinking about revising my guide to include a little "NOTE" about it. It will give you a lot of trouble later and you wont be able to add the iron work without removing it. It will be easy to sand the caprail down if you didnt attach the splash rail yet. See the photo above. I hope this helps.

Chuck


Posted by: Clayton - on -  10-21-2006

Chuck, thanks for the heads-up! Your are right, my caprail protrudes out too far over the stem. I am glad that I read your post before beginning on the splashrail. I appreciate any comments/notes that you might have at any time. I know that it has been said before, but I will say it again. Thank you for the guide (practicum?); both for writing it and making it available. This build simply would not be the same without it.

I have been keeping a Phantom Album of incremental steps on this forum. My hope is that others who are new to the hobby might find this useful, especially if they are building the Phantom.

If I recall correctly you mentioned in your guide that you blew out part of the deck/waterway while drilling a hawse hole. I found that I could not even drill them out because the bulwark is not tall or deep enough. Is this what happened to you? I am afraid that I simply did not carve the deck far enough down.

Also, I wonder if you could explain how you are pasting your pictures right into your posts? I am sure that it is simple but I just cant figure it out.

Thanks again for the help!
~Clayton


Posted by: ChuckPassaro - on -  10-21-2006

Clayton, I am glad to help if I can. My bulwarks were the correct height but I just drilled at the wrong angle. I remember that it was very late after the rest of the family was asleep. I just made the hole at the wrong angle and gouged the deck pretty bad. I should know enough to stop working when I get so bleery-eyed. If you dont have enough height you could adjust the angle of your hawse holes. Drill them at an upward angle from outbaord to inboard.

I have my own web space where I host the pictures. You could also put them on one of the many free spaces on the web for photo albums. Yahoo has them for instance. Then I link over to them in the post. Click on the insert image button on top of your post and copy the web address in the pop up window that appears. Then click OK. It works well.

Chuck


Posted by: Clayton - on -  10-23-2006

Chuck thanks for the tips. I will try drilling out he hawseholes as you suggest.

To practice inserting a picture in a post I will include a picture of how NOT to make the forward portion of the caprail.

~Clay




Posted by: imforgvn - on -  10-23-2006

Clayton and Chuck,
I was going to do the splashrail last night but I was starting to get "bleary-eyed" as Chuck put it and never got to it. I'm glad I didn't after seeing my mistake on the caprail. Good thing there is enough there for me to sand off so I should be fine. Although I am making progress and learning a LOT, I am not happy with the quality of my "joiner" work. I have rarely worked with wood, never on fine joint work and never, never on such a small scale. I guess the challenge makes it fun. I've discovered I hate painting the small stuff and waiting for it to dry.
I'm almost done with the deck hardware and expect to be rigging by next week. That could be the straw that breaks this impatient, hammer-thumbed camel's back...
I've attached my latest picture. I really wish I had redone the caprail...live and learn.
Mike


Posted by: Clayton - on -  10-23-2006

Mike, your Phantom is looking great. I am mildly envious of the time that you must have been able to spend on it. I find that usually have just one, sometimes two, evenings a week to work on my build.

I plan to start on the deck fittings and structures this week (after reshaping the forward caprail!). You (Mike) mentioned painting small parts. Have you tried “Blacken It” to color brass parts? I almost bought a bottle the other day, but after reading the warning label I was not so sure that I wanted to use it. How are you painting the small parts like the eyebolts and cleats?

This “black wire” keeps being mentioned, but I have not been able to find any to buy. Do any of you know what this is and how to get it? I thought about blackening brass wire, but it seems that it would be easier to use wire that is already black. The owner of my local hobby shop had no idea what I was talking about.


Posted by: imforgvn - on -  10-23-2006

Clayton,
My evenings are pretty free after 9 or 10. I usually work an hour or two a night, after all, sleep is highly over rated. This weekend I spent about 6 hours total.
I have not tried to blacken the parts although the website "Ship modelling for dummies" shows how it is done in a video. I have been using my black Sharpie. A couple of coats works very well. I used it on all of the cleats, eyebolts and the traveller. I painted the fife rail with thinned black paint that came with the kit. I used the black wire that came with the kit for the guards around the stovepipe and for the belaying pins on the caprail.
As for wire, I've found several different colors and guages at Michael's Craft store. For the two lights I used a paper clip. If you have brass wire, try using a black Sharpie to blacken it. It works and it is pretty permanent.
Note: making the moldings around the window of the skylight was a real tester. I almost wished I had cut it out of manilla folder and glued it over the blackened "windows." I'm not happy how it looks but since it is my first model, I am trying to not let it bother me.
Mike


Posted by: Clayton - on -  10-26-2006

I cheated on the chainplates and deadeyes. As you can see from the attached picture I used 24g black wire to make the chainplates. (Thanks for the tip Mike; I picked some up at a Michael's craft store.) It may not be technically correct, but it won’t be too obvious on the final product. After bending a loop in the wire I ‘popped’ the deadeye in, the glued it with CA. Then it was easy to drill a hole in the caprail for this relatively small diameter chainplate. It is impossible to see in the second picture, but I left the chainplates full length and CA’ed them to the hull.

The fairleads were easy to do, following Chuck’s instructions. I also followed his suggestion for bending the splash rail and using wire for the belaying pins.

Next: structures! I am looking forward to that. Mike (imforgvn) I was going to reference your pictures of the structures that you completed, but they are not in the thread tonight. I wonder if that is because I am on dial-up at home?


Posted by: imforgvn - on -  10-26-2006

Clayton,
Your "cheating" was well worth it. The chainplates look great. I must be nuts because I actually enjoyed drilling 3 tiny holes in tiny strips of brass to make mine.
I've experienced a pretty major setback and don't know quite what to do about it. I drilled the forward mast hole too far to starboard and too far aft.I was thinking of filling the hole, relocating it and patching the old hole with left over decking. My second thought was that it is my first model, it isn't too far off and no one will notice it except me. So, I'm going to toss a coin to help make my decision.
As to the picture, I tried to post it but an error came up saying I had already posted it eslewhere. I had to rename it and put it in another folder to get it uploaded (it should be here now). I still can't figure out how to upload pictures other than the ones that I attach to the post. Any suggestions?
Mike


Posted by: ChuckPassaro - on -  10-26-2006

Mike,

Thats exactly what you should do. Move the hole and patch up the existing with some left over decking. You can always place a coil of rope from your running rigging over that patch and noone will ever see it. It will be there as a constant remionder until yoyu finish the rigging though. Things like this have happened to me and that was my solution. Looking at the mistake until I managed to cover it with a rope coil will annoy you to the end so prepare yourself for that. I want to mention that it is looking terrific though and you should be proud of your results either way.

Chuck


Posted by: Clayton - on -  10-26-2006

Quote:
Originally Posted by imforgvn
Clayton,
I still can't figure out how to upload pictures other than the ones that I attach to the post. Any suggestions?
Mike


Mike, here is how to get pictures in the thread (from Chuck):

"I have my own web space where I host the pictures. You could also put them on one of the many free spaces on the web for photo albums. Yahoo has them for instance. Then I link over to them in the post. Click on the insert image button on top of your post and copy the web address in the pop up window that appears. Then click OK. It works well.
-Chuck"

I did this to get the forward caprail picture into a post. It worked but you have to leave the images in the original website location or they get lost. I tried this by deleting the image from my site, then re-checking this thread. As you can now see it is now a big square hole in the post..

I am going to try to insert an image that I have in one of my albums in this forum:



**************************************************
Edit - Clayton, you were linking with an img code to the page (the page is a url code) where the photo is located, not to the image itself. Fixed it. Cheers, John

Edit - Thanks John!


Posted by: Clayton - on -  10-26-2006

So Mike, what are you going to do about the mast hole? I am curious because as I was placing the traveler last night I wondered how accurate my two mast holes are. There are so many structures crowded onto the aft deck that there is not much room for error, especially when considering the rake of the main mast.

I measured as carefully as possible, but is sure is easy to make a mistake. It also seems like my total deck length is about 3/8” longer than what is shown on the plans. Did you notice this as well?


Posted by: imforgvn - on -  10-27-2006

Chuck,
Thanks for the advice and encouragement. I was leaning towards moving and patching but didn't quite know how to hide the deck repair. A coil of rope is a good idea. I was also thinking of finding a small mastiff or other large dog to have laying down on that area of the deck. What good is a ship without a dog?? Again, thanks for all your help.
Clayton, ,
I guess that does it. I'm going to repair, move, install dog/coil of rope. I can sleep now...
I didn't notice the difference in the deck length vs the plans. I will check tonight and let you know. I'm afraid everything is off a bit.
I will also try to post some pictures via your instructions.
Mike


Posted by: Clayton - on -  10-27-2006

Hey Mike, I am really looking forward to starting on the deck structures and furniture (is that the correct term for the fife rail and stuff?) The model has been enjoyable up to this point, but to me it will start to look more complete with the structures on it. Did it seem that way to you as well?

Right now it seems like I can work for two hours on little things, and when I am done the Phantom looks exactly like it did before I started. Perhaps I am working very sloooowly... HA

Good luck with the repair. I think that the dog is a good idea. Where do you find something like that?

~Clay


Posted by: imforgvn - on -  10-27-2006

I must agree that building the structures and actually placing them was rewarding. I've taken it fairly slow too. When I go back and look at the pictures of the bare hull, it is hard to beleive I'm to the point that I am. It almost looks like a real ship.
As far as the dog, there are SO MANY sources on the internet for stuff. I just need to find the right sized dog. I don't doubt that I will to. Gives me something to do at 2 a.m.!


Posted by: Clayton - on -  10-27-2006

Good luck with the dog search. I am looking forward to seeing pictures of where you're at....

I wonder if anyone else besides you and I (and Chuck) is even reading this thread anymore........


Posted by: djbishop - on -  10-27-2006

I just read all the way through this thread. I should get my kit Monday (Oct 30) and think that what I have read here should be very helpful I am thankful that everybody took the time to post so much about this kit.

Daniel


Posted by: Clayton - on -  10-27-2006

Hey Daniel, welcome to the thread! What made choose the Phantom? Is this your first build?

You will have noticed that most of the people who have been posting in this thread are neophytes to ship modeling, so we have been learning quite a bit from each other.

I hope that this forum (and this thread) are a help to you - and I am sure that we will learn from you as well. If I was not participating in this thread I am not sure that I would be trying so hard or doing so well with the Phantom. Thiss has been alot of fun so far....

~Clay


Posted by: falconsfan55 - on -  10-28-2006

u r right clayton. i am on my first build and i think i would have given up without this site. the most difficult thing i have tried(other than marriage).
i worked with my hands for 40 years and thought i was good, maybe i wasnt as good as i thought.


Posted by: djbishop - on -  10-28-2006

This will be my first build. This will actually be my first attempt at working with wood for any kind of a building project as well. I have always liked to build things and was thinking about trying some plastic models since I did that as a child and just ended up at the model expo site while I was looking up different modeling stuff on the web. The Phantom seemed like a natural choice since I could get the credit toward the next model if I enjoy building it and want to do another.

So I guess if I want to be honest I would have to say I decided to try it on a whim but I am a cuirous kind of person and ship building interest me so I think I will see it through and keep it up long enough to build some planked models after I learn a little about woodworking on my first one or two kits.

Daniel


Posted by: SSBN629 - on -  10-28-2006

Hello everybody.

I've been working between my Bluenose and the Phantom, and as such my progress has been slow.

I'm having fun with the Phantom though. I decided to use the walnut planking strips from my Bluenose kit to plank up the hull of the Phantom. I finished the planking but one thing is for sure, I'll never plank something as small as this Phantom again with those thin walnut strips. You'd think that the 2nd planking walnut strips would be easy to work with, but they are brittle and break very easily. I had to soak them overnight to get the wood soft enough to work with and the small scale made it that much harder.

I must say that the wood grain on the Phantom looks good. I will still be planking the bottom with the copper tape. When I'm done with the copper bottom, I'll take some pictures and post them here for you all to see.

One other thing I noticed in Chuck's Practium. On page 5 where he instructs you to drill a 3/16" hole at the base of the stern to accept the rudder, that is way to big of a hole. Instead I used a 3/32" bit to drill the hole, and after I shaped the rudder, the post fit perfectly into the hole.

Happy modeling.


Posted by: imforgvn - on -  10-30-2006

Well, I'm finished with phase 1. If I were to grade myself I'd give me a B.
I must say making the gaskets on the bowsprit was the most tedius and delicate process of phase 1. I first tried gluing wire as per the practicum but I just couldn't get them all the same size and shape and just wasn't happy with the look so I tried to dissasemble the jib stays from the bowsprit and ended up breaking the bowsprit. So I started over again and used thread which I then applied CA to in order to give it some stiffness which allowed me to bend it down. I posted a picture of the bowsprit and the finished hull. Now I get to try my hand at rigging for the first time.
My repair went well. You can't hardley notice it and the fife rail covers most of it.
Onward ho.


Posted by: ChuckPassaro - on -  10-30-2006

Its looking good. You work quickly. Those gaskets were a pain in the butt, I agree. I think yours look great and offer another technique to all future builders. keep the pictures coming.

Chuck


Posted by: Clayton - on -  10-30-2006

Yeah Mike, looking good! Great idea using the thread for the gaskets, I might give that a try when I finally get to that point.

Say, I have been meaning to ask. Are you doing any prep to the metal parts prior to painting? I have painted a few items, and the paint flakes right off. I would have thought that washing (in soapy water) and rinsing would be enough. I have not been priming, perhaps that is the problem?

Steve, I look forward to seeing your walnut planking! How will you finish it?

~Clay


Posted by: imforgvn - on -  10-31-2006

Clayton,
Painting has proven to be a real pain. I find that unless I thin the paint considerable it looks globby at this small scale. I have used primer on some of the castings but where ever I could I just used a black Sharpie. The only problem I encountered (as you brought up earlier) is that the CA liquifieds the ink again and can cause purple staining. I've had to touch some things up becuase of it. Any metal that gets painted and then handled with tweezers or such will need to be repainted. With the Sharpie, it holds up pretty well.
Chuck,
Thanks for the comment. I find that time flies and generally an intended hour ends up becoming two! Now that golf season has ended (for the most part) I have more time to work on it.
Mike


Posted by: Clayton - on -  11-02-2006

Last night I made all of the aft deck structures, I don’t think that they turned out too bad. It was getting late by the time that I finished the skylight; after gluing the roof on I realized that I had forgotten to give it any camber. I am not sure if it is worth redoing or not. I still have to sand the bottom to get it to fit the contour of the deck, so I might just re-do the roof then.

I followed Chuck’s advice by using clear packing tape for the skylight glass; it looks pretty good. But I used gray paint instead of black, just to add a little variety to the color. I used thin styrene to separate the windows so that it would not look too bulky.

And the trim around the base of each structure was much easier than I thought it would be. I just painted a large piece of manila folder before cutting the 1/32” strip off of it. Then I cut a long piece and glued it one a little at a time, wrapping it around the structure instead of cutting a piece for each side.

It seems like the traveler blocks are way out of scale. Would they be that large in real-life? If they were any smaller I wouldn’t be able to work with them though, that’s for sure. I can’t figure out how to trim the thread closer to the knots holding the blocks on. Does anyone have a good technique for that?

~Clay




Posted by: ChuckPassaro - on -  11-02-2006

Clayton

It looks fantastic. Use a nail clipper to trim that knot. It needs to be a sharp pair. glue on the rigging line also helps to make it brittle and easier to snip with the nail clippers.

chuck


Posted by: Clayton - on -  11-02-2006

Thanks for the compliment and the tip Chuck; I will get a new pair of clippers just for trimming knots. I did put a touch of CA on the knots after tying them off, so I bet that they are brittle.

~Clayton


Posted by: imforgvn - on -  11-02-2006

Holy Cow Clayton! Your Phantom looks AWESOME! Man, it makes me want to either burn mine or start over! I've never seen such clean structures before. You must have toothpicks for fingers. Keep up the good work.
I've just finished the foremast and am finding that making/installing eyebolts of such small scale is time consuming and frustrating. I need to take some time off!!!
Mike


Posted by: SSBN629 - on -  11-02-2006

Hello everybody!

Here is something for those who haven't copper plated the bottom of their ships yet.....
I’ve searched the Forums looking for techniques on working with copper tape. The ¼" wide tape that comes in the kits is just to big for the smaller scale ships. In Chuck Passaro’s practium on the Phantom, he suggest cutting the tape width in half to bring the copper plating more in line with the scale of the model. It seems everyone was struggling with how to cut the copper tape and maintaining some accuracy with each individual piece of copper plate.

Here is a way to easily cut the ¼" wide copper tape into 1/8" wide strips for those smaller scale projects. Now this procedure just makes it easier to cut the tape in half and then cut the ¼" lengths. It doesn't make the tedious work of laying the copper tape on the hull any less tedious.

First you need to have a good cutting surface and you need to have horizontal and vertical reference lines like those green self healing cutting mats. Go down to an office supply store and buy some clear double-coated tape (clear/see thru) at least 1/2" wide.

Take your double-coated tape (about 11" long and lay it down on your cutting surface and line up the tape with one of the horizontal reference lines. Now cut 10" long strips of copper tape, which is a manageable length to stay with, and lay it down on top of the double-coated tape and make sure that the copper tape is perfectly aligned with the horizontal reference line showing through the clear tape.
Now here's where you need a good straight edge, something like a 12" or 18" machinist steel ruler. Measure and put a scribe mark exactly at the center at both ends of the copper tape. Lay your straight edge on top of the copper tape and align the edge with the scribe marks at both ends of the copper tape and hold down the straight edge firmly.
Take your very sharp #11 blade/knife and carefully cut the copper tape along the straight edge and make two light passes. You do not want to cut through the copper tape backing. The copper tape is thin and will cut very easily. Now you can lay your straight edge ruler down next to the copper tape and the ruler will now stick to the tape giving you a secured reference to cut the 1/8" strips into ¼" lengths using one of those clear see through drafting triangles as your cutting edge. With the triangle, it is easy to move it along the edge or your reference steel ruler.
You can leave the copper tape intact and lay it down on the hull of the ship and just lightly scribe the tape at ¼" lengths to simulate each copper plate but it doesn’t look as good as the individual ¼" lengths. What is really handy is to leave the copper tape on your cutting surface, still attached to the clear double-coated tape, and just peal off each piece of copper section as you need them.
Another bit of advise after cutting the copper tape into (2) 1/8" strips, is that invariably one strip will be slightly wider than the other no matter how accurate you try to be. So when applying the ¼" long sections, stay with one side of the cut strips for each run of the copper plank.
I have found through experimenting with this small of scale, that trying to mark the copper pieces to simulate the rivets just doesn’t produce satisfactory results, so don’t bother…


Posted by: hlweyl - on -  11-03-2006

Daniel,

The Phantom will be my first project, too.

I have just completed getting the keel length correct and have place my guidelines on the flat bottom of the keel. So far, so good. I made a small block jig to screw into the deck so that I can mount the hull into my vise. That made a big difference with the sanding and carving.

I am now working on making the keel width 1/8" of an inch wide. I am about half way done ... just a little more at the stern end to go, then I start moving forward from the middle of the keel.

This site is great! I hope everyone will keep sharing experiences and post questions and answers. It is making this hobby/passion that much more fun to do!

Lloyd


Posted by: Clayton - on -  11-03-2006

Hey Mike, I don't think that either one of us is doing a better or worse job with the Phantom. Quite frankly I admire how quickly you are moving along with your build. Are you going to post some more pics soon? Half of the fun of this is seeing what other people are up to.

Mike, are you having to make eyebolts because you ran out of those supplied in the kit? Or are they the wrong size? I might be taking some time off as well; it is going to be a busy couple of weeks coming up.

Steve, I sure like your idea for cutting the copper tape. I will give that a try when I finally get back to working on my Cutty Sark; the kit I have is about the same scale as the Phantom.

Welcome to the thread Lloyd!!!

Quote:
Originally Posted by imforgvn
Holy Cow Clayton! Your Phantom looks AWESOME! Man, it makes me want to either burn mine or start over! I've never seen such clean structures before. You must have toothpicks for fingers. Keep up the good work.
I've just finished the foremast and am finding that making/installing eyebolts of such small scale is time consuming and frustrating. I need to take some time off!!!
Mike



Posted by: Clayton - on -  11-03-2006

I see that there have been a few votes for the Sultana as a possible next kit. I am thinking about that as well. Not only is it a cool looking schooner and affordable, but our friend Chuck has mad a practicum for that kit as well. And if it is possible to improve upon something like the Phantom practicum, he has done so with the Sultana. It is in 8 parts, totals 36.4mb, and is very instructive. He even shows how to plank part of the hull to improve the look of the kit. Seems like a good next step for learning the hobby.

If any of you are curious, I would recommend checking the Sultana Practicum out. And there is a decent Sultana reproduction website as well.

Sultana:
http://www.modelexpo-online.com/cgi...&TRAN85=N&GENP=

Guide:
http://205.234.234.99/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=97

Page:
http://www.sultanaprojects.org/schoonersultana.htm


Posted by: imforgvn - on -  11-03-2006

Clayton,
Thanks but you are a craftsman. I am a hack, but I plan on getting better. I did run out of eyebolts so I'm making my own. It works but it isn't as neat as I'd hoped. But then again I see everything at 4x magnification so my errors are clear. I really regret not using a nice piece of wood to make the cap rails instead of using what was in the kit. Since I am ahead of schedule, I may just do it.
I haven't posted pictures because I've only finished the bowsprit since the last photo and last night completed the foremast. Tonight I have to make the boom rest. I spent about an hour making rings out of manila folder to simulate the rings that secure the sail to the mast. I also has to fabricate a 3 hole block since the kit didn't come with any. After I step the mast I will post a couple pictures. I wish some of the other Phantom builders would post their photos too.
You know, I really want to build the Benjamin Nathan next but I'm a little intimidated by the prospect of laying the hull. Don't know if I'm ready for that yet.
M


Posted by: Clayton - on -  11-03-2006

I was wondering if anyone was going to do the hoops. I am not sure if I will or not. So when you post your experience with them I can decide. :o) Ha! I have been considering purchasing a magnification lamp, is that what you are using?

The BL would be a neat kit to build as well. I have to admit that I have a propensity for ships/boats with cannon on them. I am thinking that my first scratch build will be a pirate sloop. I am beginning to research the possibilities now.

Looking forward to seeing the next pics you add; I have enjoyed looking at your progress with the Phantom. Seeing how others are doing something is a big help for me. I hope that others start posting as well.
~Clay


Posted by: SSBN629 - on -  11-04-2006

Hey Clayton...

A number of post back in this Phantom thread you made a comment about snagging the corners of the copper tape after you had laid them down. Did you ever find a solution to sealing the copper tape?


Posted by: Clayton - on -  11-05-2006

Steve,

My plan was to use some kind of clear-coat, but I never did. I have been concerned that there might be some irreversible effect if I did. Now that I am done with work on the hull I have not been handling it as much; in fact, it pretty much stays in the cradle that I made. I have recently noticed a couple corners of tape that are folded back though.

Are you having the same problem? Do you have any ideas on what can be done?

How did the walnut planking go? I bet your narrower copper plates look really good. In some ways I wish that I could go back and redo mine, but I am also glad to be where I am with the model. I am not sure that I would have the patience or fortitude to completely redo something like that.

~Clay


Posted by: SSBN629 - on -  11-06-2006

Hello again,

I think I'll get some scrap wood and plank in with some of the copper tape and then experiment with different sealers to see what works and what happens to the copper finish.

I thought I'd post a couple of pictures I took of the Phantom right after I finished planking it with the walnut strips from the Bluenose project. There was a bunch of 1/8" strips in the Bluenose kit, and since I'll be painting the hull of the Bluenose, the walnut strips where going to waste. Those walnut strips are very thin and very brittle. It took a lot of soaking in water so that I could work with them effectively.


Posted by: Clayton707 - on -  11-06-2006

Steve,
Nice job planking your phantom hull in walnut. The planks may have been easier to work with if you soaked them in ammonia. I have never done this but it sounds like an effective proceedure....

Your planking job has inspired me to plank most of my Wasa model in walnut as well so that the planking does not clash too much with the wales that I painted in a flat black color and also to imitate the fact that the plaking on the real ship had a nice layer of tar applied to the outside. Then the clinker planking above the upper wale will be done in a lighter colored wood...possibly apple or sycamore but we will see.

Thanks!

Regards,
Clayton Johnson
Duluth MN


Posted by: imforgvn - on -  11-06-2006

Clay,
I did some hoops. I didn't do 15 but I think the idea is communicated. They were simple to do. I just held one end of the manila strips I'd cut against the mast with my index finger and spun the mast to wrap the strip. I then backed it off a bit, added some CA to the inside of the tail end and spun it the mast again. After that I cut it with my exacto. I actually did the main mast hoops after I'd already installed the boom rest.
I've started the standing rigging. I actuallly enjoy it.
Had a major catastrophe last night. I positioned my overhead light between the masts so I could take pictures without a flash. After I'd taken the pictures, I slid the model away from me forgetting that the lamp was overhead and snapped the main topmast. It is the second one I've snapped, the first one since the mast was mounted. I was able to CA it back on and reinforce it with some copper tape. After it was painted it didn't look too bad.
One thing that is frustrating me is the triatic stay. If I apply sufficient force to take all of the slack out, I deflect the topmasts out of position. I put some CA on the lines to stiffen and straighten it and that helped but it still looks slack. I haven't studied the plans but I assume there is a aft shroud that will attache to the top of the topmast that will take the slack out. I can't live with sloppy rigging!
I actually use a magnifying head set that I wear. I bought it at modelexpo. It has 3 different levels of magnification and is pretty comfortable and extremely convenient to use. It also has two lights but I left them on the first time I used it and burned the batteries out. If I didn't have such a bad case of CRS (Can't Remember Sh*t) I'd replace them.
I have also enjoyed watching your progress and have benefited much from communicating with you. I meant to ask, how did you become such a fine craftsman? I think you mentioned that this was your first build but your workmanship looks very advanced.
M

I forgot to mention that after taking the time to take pictures and breaking the topmast becuase of it, I FORGOT MY CAMERA at home so I can't upload the photos. Talk about CRS.

pps. I brought my camera and realized what a lousy picture I took. Perhaps I cropped the top masts subconciously becuase I was so unhappy with the triatic stay...
M


Posted by: djbishop - on -  11-07-2006

Decided it was time to post an update. I'm not a real "talkative" type of guy so don't know how often these will come really.

I got my kit and everything is there the hull block needs a lot of work though. I'm new to all forms of woodworking so I'm working real slow being overly nervous that I will mess up somehow. I really think my next project will be something I plank. The hull is almost shortened to the correct length though now if I could just find a little more time to work on it.

Daniel


Posted by: imforgvn - on -  11-07-2006

Daniel,
The great thing about the internet is that you don't have to talk at all! Seriously though, it is neat to see each other's progress and get/suggest tips that make modelling easier. If you haven't done it already, make sure you download the Phantom practicum that Chuck Passaro wrote. As you progress you will find that the instructions that came with the kit are lacking in many ways. Basically they leave it up to you to figure out how to fabricate things based soley upon the drawings (fortunately the drawings are pretty good and to scale). Since there is more than one way to skin a cat, Chuck has some great ideas on how to save time and frustration. The Phantom is my first model and I've just started the rigging (you can see a picture on my post just before yours). It has taken me about 6 weeks to get this far working 1 or 2 hours a day. I try to take my time and enjoy the journey (totally against my "type A" personality).
Anyway, this is a great forum for the Phantom and Clayton (who is an excellent builder) is very helpful.
Take care and enjoy.
Mike


Posted by: golfermd - on -  11-08-2006

My first post here. I am slowly working on this model. Chuck has been invaluable as a source, as well as the posts here. I have finished the shaving the areas uder the caprail and am in the process of cleaning it up with sand paper. I have rather large hands and am not particularly dextrous. But I am doing this model for myself and really enjoying it. As soon as it makes sense to do so I'll post a few pictures. Thanks for all who have posted here.


Posted by: Clayton - on -  11-08-2006

Glad to hear that there are more of you out there still working on the Phantom. Hope you are having fun, post pictures if you can. I have to say that even though the Phantom was not my idea of a great boat to model I am very glad that I am doing it now, and I am gaining so much from the experience!!!

Steve, your walnut planking looks sharp, it adds a kind of richness to the hull! You did such a nice job that it seems a shame to put copper over part of it. I am anxious to hear about what you find with sealing the copper.

Man Mike, your rigging looks fantastic so far – I don’t know why you are calling me a craftsman! (I did a LOT of plastic models about 20 years ago, and I am into woodworking, perhaps those experiences have lent themselves to ship modeling.?.)

Did you find a solution to taking the slack out of the triatic stay? Did you try waxing the line to help stiffen it? Good tips on the mast hoops – thanks; I will give the hoops a try now.

Also Mike, did you paint or stain the lower masts? I like to color, but I can’t decide if they are supposed to be brown or black. The plans say black, Chuck says brown (stained). I guess at some point it comes down to personal opinion.

But does anyone know, were the masts wood or metal? They certainly could have been metal by 1868.

~Clay


Posted by: imforgvn - on -  11-08-2006

Clayton,
Thanks for the encouragement. I have found doing the standing rigging to be very threrapeutic. It takes so much concentration to thread the deadeyes and secure the line that the rest of the world dissapears for a little while.
I painted the masts white to 1/2" above the deck and stained them (walnut) up to the topmast. For some reason I had painted the fife rails black but think they would look better white.
I actually coated the shrouds with beeswax and used CA on the triatic stay to stiffen it. I think that there is a halyard that will exert back pressure on the topmast that should take the slack out of it. I'll figure something out.
Mike


Posted by: Clayton - on -  11-09-2006

Mike,

I have been looking for a local source of bee’s wax without any luck. Did you have to order yours online? I see that there are many options out there, not sure what to buy. I thought that I had hit on a great idea by using one of those wax sealing rings made for toilets; but I read the box and discovered that they are made from petroleum wax. Bummer.

Also, did you melt or dissolve the wax to coat the lines? I have read that is the way to go, but it seems like a great deal of putzing would be involved.

~Clay


Posted by: nmachin - on -  11-09-2006

Hello everybody. I’ve been working on the Phantom for over a month and just found this site yesterday. I really wish I would have known some of these tips in this thread when I started!!! After viewing the pictures, you guys do some incredible work. Kind of makes me want to start over!

I want to share some thoughts/experiences I ran across.

I’m not trying to tell everybody to run out and buy every tool!! Even with something as simple as a dremel bit, I would start working on an area with what I had and eventually picked up what I really needed. This would make a world of difference. If I would have used the correct tools from the beginning, the results would have been much much better!!!

I found the finer gauge black wires available at www.artisticwire.com.

About half way through, I used the Blacken-It from www.micromark.com. I really wish I would have used it for blacking all the copper parts from the beginning. It just takes a couple of drops in a cup and soak the part for a couple of minutes then it’s done. I put the parts in the chemical with tweezers and rinsed it off with water and haven’t had any problems.

I have a craftsman 3D variable speed sander that I used to smooth the outside of the hull. The sanding pads snap off and I used it with only 1 pad to level the deck.

I used my scroll saw to rough cut the cap rail then a dremel to finish it.

Hopefully some of these tips will help somebody!!


Posted by: imforgvn - on -  11-09-2006

Don't laugh but I use Penaud(?) mustache wax. It is made of beeswax...smells good too! I got it at the local drugstore.
It must be tough to take the toilet off everytime you need some wax...(what's that smell??)


Posted by: imforgvn - on -  11-09-2006

nmachin,
Welcome to the thread. Thanks for some of the tips. If you haven't already, make sure you download the practicum for the Phantom. It was done by Chuck Passaro and is indispensable. You can download it on the downloads page. If I know how to insert hyperlinks in a message I would have done so for you but I'm sure you will find it.


Posted by: nmachin - on -  11-09-2006

Thanks Mike. I pretty much trashed the instructions included and am solely using the practicum for the Phantom.


Posted by: Clayton - on -  11-09-2006

Nmachin, how far along are you on the Phantom?


Posted by: nmachin - on -  11-09-2006

I'm working on the fife rails and fore deck fittings. Painting the castings white has really slowed me down. I end up having to put many coats of paint on them to keep the grey from bleeding through and making them actually look white. This also takes away from the detail.


Posted by: imforgvn - on -  11-10-2006

Well I started on the maintopmast stays last night. You reallly need girly fingers to work with that flimsy topmast. If I snap it again, I may just snap for good!


Posted by: Clayton - on -  11-11-2006

Nmachin, I am also having a tough time painting the metal pieces. My new theory is to spray them with a sealer after washing and drying them. Perhaps this will help the paint go on in fewer coats? Hope to try that soon.

Mike – you’re making me nervous. Is it that easy the break the mast(s) while rigging the boat?

Your Phantom looks sharp! I am trying to tell from the picture, how did you rig the pin rails? Did you run the shrouds through a hole in them? And how did you strop (is that the correct term?) the shroud deadeyes, did you follow Chuck’s method?

Now that you are so far along I will have lots of questions for you. I have not been able to work on my Phantom for about the last ten days. I hope to have time this weekend.

~Clay
Edit – I did not use the right term (strop). I meant to ask how you ran the line between the two deadeyes of each shroud.


Posted by: hapes - on -  11-12-2006

So, finally got to start working on this model, and since this is my first real experience working with wood, and the stern area is so vastly out of scale here, I have some questions to verify I'm not TOTALLY screwing the pooch here.

After cutting out just the fore-and-aft templates, I noticed that basically the entire keel is not really anywhere near the shape of the template. The bow has a significantly stronger curve than the template, and the stern, well, we already know the stern is messed up, as per the practicum.

So, a bit of carving with my hobby knife (using a straight blade, not a knife blade), the bow is pretty close to accurate - though after sanding, I may have totally messed it up. The stern, however, is proving to be somewhat difficult. I don't want to take off too much off the transom area, it won't leave me much to work with when I'm carving the railing. The hull underneath the transom (between the transom and the sternpost) seems to need to be carved out some, and where the sternpost would go needs to be cut down significantly. Did everyone else have this carving experience? Am I messing up? I've taken maybe 1/16th or 3/32nds of an inch off the back, still have 1/4" of wood left on the transom, I suppose that railing won't be too bad off. The sternpost area looks like it needs another 3/16" off.

I can tell this is going to take a while already, but thankfully, I picked up a Dremel, which is taking the wood off faster and smoother than I can with my hobby knife.


Posted by: SSBN629 - on -  11-12-2006

Hey Bill!

Glad to see you aboard this Phantom project.

1st of all you did the right thing in getting yourself a Dremel. I can't tell you how many times that tool has made a task go a lot quicker. You'll certainly gain more experience with it the more you use it.

As far as the carving down the hull to fit the templates, I had to take off 1/2 inch in order to get the forward and aft templates to come together. Most of the wood came off the stern and like wise it took a lot of sanding with the dremel and sanding blocks to get the stern and the stem to match up with the templates. I never did quite get the hull shape to match all of the templates, and it really didn't matter. All you really have to do is get the hull shape looking good and be satisfied with your work.

I found a small cutting blade for the dremel that really came in handy for removing the 1/8" step below the caprail, and also removing wood from the bulwarks. It just takes a light touch of the dremel to remove the wood and then you can finish it up with a small sanding block or one of those sanding wands. Be careful though with that dremel, one oops and it can really mess up your model.

As you have probably already read this Phantom thread, you're then aware of all the tips, guides, suggestions, and tricks that all the other model ship builders have posted. They are all a great bunch of guys and are willing to help you along in your project.


Posted by: golfermd - on -  11-12-2006

I have pretty much finished with shaping the hull and am about to start work on the stem, keel and stern post. A pretty basic question from the neophyte. What type of glue should I use for the work?


Posted by: SSBN629 - on -  11-12-2006

Hi Dan! Steve here...

I like to use a good wood glue like Weldbond Professional wood glue, Elmer's wood glue or Titebond II wood glue whenever I can and use clamps to hold the joint together until it sets. There's something about wood glue that gives you a stronger bond than the wood itself. I've use the Zap-A-Gap CA+ glue to give me a quick instant set when I couldn't use a clamp or if I was just impatient and in a hurry and didn't want to wait for the glue to set. I've used the Zap CA glue (the really liquid stuff) when I needed to run the glue in between wood seams to secure a wood joint. I guess it all depends on what you're gluing at any one particular time. The CA glue can be used in conjunction with the professional wood glues and act as a clamp with its quick setting characteristics. I like the CA glue but I don't like the smell of it and you need good ventilation when using it. The benefit of the yellow wood glue is that you have some time to reposition the wood before the glue sets. With CA glue, you better have the wood in the right position when you install it or you're gonna play heck to remove it and reposition it for gluing again. The thick Zap-A-Gap CA+ gives you a few seconds to position the wood but you still need to be quick about it.

Now here's what's really dangerous, one neophyte giving another neophyte suggestions!!! What I have learned comes from the many different forums and talking to the members or our local ship modeling club. The answers are out there, and I've found that all's you have to do is ask. No sense in reinventing the wheel.

Good Luck Dan...


Posted by: djbishop - on -  11-13-2006

Well recent post make me feel better about my ship. I too have had to remove a lot of wood from the hull and have been looking at it and trying to decide if i really wanna make all those templates fit perfectly along the sides.

I also went and got a dremel set. After I read through this thread I had decided that it would be just about the best thing I could buy for my self to make my project go smoothly. If I don't end up fixing a dryer today I will probably try to find time to finish up shaping my hull in the sense that it will look good enough to me for my first model and maybe be able to move on to the "finishing the hull" stage.

Daniel Bishop


Posted by: imforgvn - on -  11-13-2006

Clayton,
Sorry I've delayed in getting back to you.
I cut the pin rails out of some scrap after I'd drilled the holes in them for the belaying pins. After that I put a touch of CA on the outside edge and held them against the inside of the shrouds. After the CA set up I seized each side to the shroud using the thin black rigging line.
As for the shrouds/deadeyes. I "seized the strop" (I just love to say that!) using the method that is shown at www.shipmodeling.ca/index.html.
As far as locating the height of the deadeyes:
I took the measurements from the plans to get the correct height above the deadeyes that are connected to the chain plates. I then transfered the measurement to a scrap of wood. I then stood the scrap of wood up against the side of the hull so that the line I'd marked was at the correct height for the bottom of the deadeye that I was going to connect to the shroud. I siezed the shroud to the mast and then ran the shroud through the thread hole in the deadeye. I then adjusted the shroud deadeye so that the bottom of the deadeye was at the line on the scrap of wood. I pinched the shroud and held it closed with a tiny clothespin. After checking the height again I siezed the shroud to the deadeye and then simply threaded the two deadeyes together (you have to be careful not to pull the mast to one side or the other).
Yes, the topmasts are VERY flimsy. Fortunately I broke both of them by being clumsy and not paying attention. I've found that you have to move very slowly and deliberately around this thing or you will break something. If you do you should never be in a position to break anything.
Last night I got as far a rigging the topping lift for the main boom. I now face some seriously tight rigging in the uppper mast area. If I break something my career might come to a crashing end!!
Mike


Posted by: Clayton - on -  11-13-2006

Mike,
Thanks for the tips on shrouds and deadeyes. I am gaining much from your experiences – good for me bad for you! Have you thought about putting pictures of your Phantom in an album on the Forum? You are leading the pack in construction; it would be great to be able to reference images of your work (I am especially interested in your rigging :o).

Dan,
I am a big fan of Zap CA and Zap CA+. One of the cheapest but must useful tools you can purchase are the extra applicator tips. I found that they can be reused the next day by gut cutting off the very end of the tip. But don’t use one tip with different types of CA. I did that and got a weird reaction: the CA congealed in the bottle.

I also like quick-tack wood glue. Like Steve said it is very useful stuff.

~Clay


Posted by: imforgvn - on -  11-13-2006

Clayton,
The pleasure is all mine. I've been thinking of putting an album together. I just have to figure out how to do it. I do have the instructions...I just haven't gotten around to it.
Another tip for you. I have been using pins with the round heads instead of wire. It is the right guage (22ish) but very strong. The metal of the pin stays where you bend it. I have been making eyehooks out of them and the hooks for the tackle as well. The round plastic heads have come in handy for using on the boom although they are kind of large. I dont' think anyone but the most discriminating purists will notice. I also learned the hard way that tying little knots in thread to make the foot ropes on the main boom just didn't work. Instead I put the thread between two alligator clips and tied knots at regular intervals with another piece of thread. I then put a dab of CA on the knots to keep them in place. Making the boom was a challenge but fun. I only have about 4 single blocks left and need about a dozen. Making them sucks but I don't have any alternative except having model shipways send me some more.
I also downloaded the flags from the practicum. I printed them out with a color printer on to label paper. That way I just have to cut them out, peel the backing and stick the two sides together. I can't wait...what fun.
Take care.

p.s. I use brush-on CA. Best thing since sliced bread. No clogged tips and you can control it like nobody's business.


Posted by: Clayton - on -  11-13-2006

BRUSH ON CA?!? Sounds great I will have to put that on my shopping list.

I would have thought that the pins would snap when being bent. Don’t know why, but I was under the impression that they are brittle. Perhaps the cheaper ones are. You are using the regular roundhead sewing pins right? Great tip.

You are getting way ahead of me – I still have not done anything since my last photo. And it might be a week or two before I can find time to do more. I think that I am